South American Natives Speak Ancient European Language? Part 1

The following article was translated from the source by Kartavirya.

Hungarian Táltos Cave Found in Ecuador

Juan (János) Moricz’ discovery of South American, Hungarian speaking Indians

by Györgyné Hary (1977)

The Peabody Museum announced to Harvard University that following the archaeological digs in Puebla, Mexico conducted by their research expedition sent there, this expedition concluded that the American man did not appear in America between 12-15 000 years ago – as previously thought – but over 40 000 years ago. Among the archaeological finds were human skeletons and chiseled stone tools together with ancient animals extinct for over 40 000 years. The news agencies of the USA spread these new all over the world.

In those days in Ecuador, Peru and the Amazonas Juan (János) Moricz, our compatriot, met such Indian tribes the members of which he could speak Hungarian with. In their legends they keep the awareness and knowledge of their many thousands of years’ old past and their kinship and connections with other peoples alive. Nobody has been able to refute Moricz’ discoveries, on the contrary, the Spanish for political and economical reasons have levelled heavy attacks against Moricz.

Ecuador

His discoveries are significant indeed. This much is certain, that through the many years of darkness the world’s ancient history has been in, the ancient past of the Magyar will shine with radiant splendour in front of all the peoples of the world. By reading the educational literature, daily press and the academic literature of the early 20th century it was common knowledge that in the Amazonas’ ancient jungles lives such White Indian tribes that they had practically not come in contact with yet, and thus this area held from the researchers many until then unknown surprises. A portion of these surprises is this one.

In the 1920s several reports were received to the effect that the Hungarian engineers and workers working in South and Central America were speaking Hungarian with the local Indian workers. Some of the Hungarian emigrants who settled here after the Second World War took these rumours seriously and started looking into it more carefully. One of these was János Moricz who started his investigations in Ecuador in the 1960s. Here he spoke Hungarian with the members of three Indian tribes: the Cahari, Mochica and Puruha. Enthused by this he started archaeological and archive investigations and, among other finds, he managed to collect more than 10 000 geographical and family names identical to Hungarian ones. As a result of his findings he was appointed historical consultant at one of the Argentinian universities.

His research was mainly conducted in Ecuador, the capital of which is Quito. The city is named after the old Quito empire. Quito originally sounded like Kitus.1 Here in the Kitus empire, on the shores of the Pacific Ocean, between the peaks of the Cordillera (Andes) mountains –higher than 5000 metres – on the secretive and mythical plains covered with Amazonas’ ancient jungles live those Indian tribes, some of whom still speak our ancient Hungarian language, even today.

  1. Pronounced keet-oosh in Hungarian. Kit=Két, Us=Ős, i.e. “the empire of the Two Ancestors”()
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21 Comments

  1. Fortunately, DNA technology is now sufficiently advanced to corroborate or debunk the lineal descent of the tribes in question from the Magyars.

  2. Carl Masthay said:

    Holy smoke (Laszlo V.)!
    That stuff that Moricz (pronounced /mo-rits/, as you might know) spewed into the world is nonsense and shows him to have been a deceiver and a liar. As a fringe detriment, what he did also defames the Hungarian people. I understand that you as a Hungarian would feel proud that what Moricz allegedly found in South America with so-called Hungarian-speaking indigenous South Americans would be a good thing, but it just isn’t so and is beyond the fringe of linguistic reality. We linguists would love to have found such a relationship, but one should not be carried away by national or linguistic pride. There has already been too much of a flap with certain Hungarians maintaining that Sumerian is related to Finno-Ugric (specifically Hungarian) with poor or scanty linguistic evidence dropping below the statistic threshold of possible glottochronological data. Anyway, this is exasperating and overwhelming for me because I can counter some of his gross claims but have to use some of my free time today instead of studying other things! (For others to whom I am sending this, please see the following two Web sites:)

    South American Natives Speak Ancient European Language? 3-page article: http://www.cakravartin.com/archives/south-american-natives-speak-ancient-european-language
    and more on Janós Moricz: http://www.goldlibrary.com/moricz.html

    All right, let me begin with stating that the South American language family Chipayan is an isolate or possibly a member of Penutian and rapidly becoming extinct and its sparse members had poorly recorded scant word data from centuries ago. Moricz states that he spoke Hungarian with members of those who spoke “Cahari, Mochica, and Puruha.” Well, first off “Cahari”is misspelled for extinct “Canari, Cañari, Canyari,”which with extinct Puruhá had so few word data that they cannot even be classified as either Chipayan or Macro-Chibchan, and NO ONE spoke it by the time of Moricz. As for Mochica, it is another name for Yunca/Yunga, which is Chipayan and also long extinct (check out the first date recorded below). (In comparison, by the 1970s Chipaya was spoken by 800 persons and Uru by about 100 persons.) So there is no way Moricz heard those three unrelated languages! Proof? Well, here are the Hungarian numbers. Please compare them with the actual recorded Amerindian forms below, showing no relationship to Hungarian (underlined is my respelling [lost here in this transmission]):

    Hungarian: egy, két, három, négy, öt, hat, hét, nyolc, kilenc, tíz

    Northern Chimú: Puruhá: only ‘2’ was recorded: pax
    Southern Chimú: Chimú: onkó, atput. Eten: unik, atput (already quite divergent from Puruhá because they probably borrowed them from Yunga, as follows)
    Chipayan: Yunga (1878): unnik, aput, sopit, nopit, igmets (egmets), cheiza, niete, khanges (khhañges), tap, cheche
    Yunga (1939): onuc, aput, soc, noc, sec, secur, nete, jac, tap, sirti
    Mochica (1633): onaec, oncaero; aput(aero); sopaet, soptaero; nopaet, noptaero; exllmaetzh(aero); tzhaxlltzha(ngo); ñite(ngo); langaess(aere [sic]); tap(aero); siaec(aero)
    Mochica (1920): oneuqe, apud, sofite, nopite, cesmen, soccer, niete, jans, tap, sirti
    For comparison: Chipaya: sintalla, pishk, chep, pakhkpik, (the rest are Aymara numbers)

    While I’m at it, here’s Sumerian: ash, min, esh(shu), lammu, ia, ashsha, i-min, ussu, elimmu, (gh)u or (gh)a

    Most people would never even see these number sets, but I collected the first ten numbers in over 3300 languages several decades ago and maintain contact with three others who have also done so. Moricz would have counted on this lack of availability, but some scholars could have pursued these data successfully back in his time.
    I read quickly thru the pages of those two Internet sites and easily found lots of other discrepancies, which scholars shouldn’t even have to point out!
    Because Andean indigenous peoples had no relation to Hungarian or Finno-Ugric languages, the unknown etymology of “Quito” from earlier “Quitos” or /kitus/ remains unknown.
    As for Moricz’s claim of finding a box in a cave with a scroll or metal plates dated at 21,000 years ago as if from the country or continent of Mu, well, c’mon, that’s beyond the fringe of reality; those alleged plates are something the Mormons still hunger for. The earliest writing is in the Middle East as a precursor to Sumerian with marks or signs on clay at about 6000 years ago.
    As for the 50 or more Pacific-region place names sounding like Hungarian Aliga, Kiliti, Lelle, well, lots of languages have a phonology that easily resembles that of other areas in the world, like Japanese sounding like Spanish. So what? It is nice to have some dedicated scholar search for years to collect similar words from dissimilar languages and write a paper and hope to get published after severe vetting and review by his or her peers, and this has happened for over two centuries. I’ve seen such fascinating papers, but a minimum of about 15% of a vocabulary set of basic common words in two groups of languages has to be met before some acceptance of relatedness is to occur. It is not easy to get into print the original meanings of so-called place names like Hungarian Aliga, Kiliti, and Lelle, for they would be either buried in some printed article or paper or just lost forever. It just so happens that Lelle is from Dutch and German; kiliti is only Tagálog for ‘tickling’, and Aliga is a deliberate deformation of Catalan àguila ‘eagle’ as a parade object and other possibilities. My huge gazetteer of 350,000 place names does not include them.
    “Sumerian” in English should have been like German so as to be “Shumerian.” The ideographs for “Shumer” indicate ‘language + adoration’, thus ‘sacred-language’. So, when the Hungarian linguists want it to be “szem-úr”/sem-uur/ as if ‘eye-lord’, neither the first consonants match nor the attested forms, even if it was a scholarly name applied to that ancient country.
    And then there is some claim as to affinity with the people of the Indus script and civilization. For that unknown language Russian scholars used a computer to find that grammar patterns seemed to match Dravidian, a language family one can expect to underlay the area northwest of their homeland in southern India. Indeed we still find the Dravidian Brahui spoken in southern Pakistan and on the left (Indian) bank of the southern course of the Indus River.
    And then there is “Celtic” /keltic/ as if it’s only real origin were to lay in Hungarian or Finno-Ugric. Granted that the etymology is obscure: (1) Latin Celtae, Greek Keltoi, perhaps akin to Latin celsus ‘high’ but probably of Celtic origin, with the root *cel ‘to rise, mount’, akin to English hill. But why would one want to go to Hungarian for its origin?
    First of all is that Hungarians migrated from Central Asia and had no influence on western Europe at all. In early times the Indo-European Iranian peoples were in eastern Europe (as shown by the river names Danube, Dniester, and so on) providing a buffer zone to the Indo-European Celts to their west. Later the Slavs formed a southward wedge pushing away both peoples. Second, per the Hungarian linguist Gyula Décsy (The linguistic identity of Europe: Part I, Bloomington, Ind., 2000, Eurolingua, page 227), the Votyaks [Udmurt] and the Zirians [Komi] “together form the Permian branch of the Finno-Ugric language family. They are settled even today in a region which belonged to the territory of the Finno-Ugrian original homeland [just west of the Urals and northward].” That’s at least 1200 miles away from Hungary; so maybe the Hungarians just got tired of the cold and moved south!
    There are so many Hungarian scholars listed as confirming Moricz’s excesses I just wonder whether any of them actually checked Moricz’s claims. It makes me distrust work coming from that country even though such scholars have the Hungarian language as a nice working tool and do good work like Dr. Gyula Décsy.

    Carl Masthay, St. Louis, Missouri, cmasthay at juno.com

  3. Kartavirya said:

    Mr. Masthay!

    First of all thank You for for the honour of Your taking the time to comment on our website and its content.

    You have been incorrect in a few assumptions.

    The article says Moricz “spoke Hungarian with the members of three Indian tribes: the Cahari, Mochica and Puruha”, not like You say, “he spoke Hungarian with members of those who spoke ‘Cahari, Mochica, and Puruha.’” You are misquoting the article. ‘Cahari’ and the other two names refer to the tribes of that name and not the languages, therefore it is correctly spelled, according to this sample Spanish text:

    “La historia de Ingapirca se confunde con la guerra de los incas por dominar a los cahari, de origen maya.”
    http://www.ayudatareas.com.ar/noticias2/46/archivo-bg1652.shtml

    The name of this tribe or people can also be spelled ‘Cañari’, but let me again point out that the ‘Cahari’ in the Moricz article refers to a tribe of people and not the language. I don’t speak Spanish but I feel relatively safe referring to an article in Spanish in which the word in question is spelled ‘cahari’. Of course I cannot account for any alleged spelling mistakes made by Györgyné Hary, I merely translated her original text as it appears on the net in Hungarian.

    You say that “the earliest writing is in the Middle East as a precursor to Sumerian with marks or signs on clay at about 6000 years ago.”
    This is not correct. I refer You to the study made by Klára Friedrich concerning the so-called Tartaria Tablets. This archaeological find was discovered 1961 in Tatárlaka, Transylvania. However, it’s not an isolated find, since the Hungarian female archaeologist Zsófia Torma made a very similar discovery in 1870 in Torda, near Kolozsvár (present-day Cluj-Napoca, Romania) which contained over 10 000 clay pieces carved with rune and pictographs. The writing in both cases has been labelled “proto-Sumerian” but Friedrich claims they both are ancient Hungarian runes at least 1000 years older than any Sumerian script found until the present day as confirmed by dendrochronology and should therefore, in her opinion, be called Carpathian-Basin pictographs.
    Zsófia Torma may have been right when she stated that the religious views of the population of Tatárlaka and Jamdet-Nasr (Sumer) originate from the same source. She acquaints us with the observations of Leonard Woolley (the archeologist and excavator of Uruk) who states that the people of Jamdet-Nasr arrived in Sumer from the Carpathian Basin, by way of the Balkans.
    See further “The Mystery of Tatárlaka” by Klára Friedrich http://cakravartin.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/mystery-of-tatarlaka-klara-friedrich.pdf

    The theory of a Finno-Ugric ancient language is fiction invented by Hunfalvy (Hunsdorfer) and Budenz and further propagated by others on the orders of the Habsburgs, in order to deny Hungarians their history and culture. It is a well-known fact that if you don’t know your history you will be robbed of your heritage and future. Therefore the research done in the 1800’s is not reliable due to non-Hungarians falsifying Hungarian history to suit their own and their masters’ political agenda. Neither Hunfalvy nor Budenz spoke the Hungarian language so any claim of theirs lack both merit and credibility. Furthermore, Hunfalvy and Budenz physically destroyed all research done until that time concerning the Scythian-Hun-Magyar connections and hence also the connection between the Magyars and the Sumerians.
    For further research I recommend the work of the indologist, linguist and historian Dr. Éva Aradi and historian Dr. Ida Bobula.

    Let me also quote the respected scholar Dr. István Kiszely on the issue of the Finno-Ugric fairy tale:

    Contrary to the certainty of the scholars of Hungary and the world, the knowledge that the Hungarian language is of Turkish origin was questioned by Szenczi Molnár Albert, Johann Eberhard Fischer, August Schlözer in the 17th century. Later, the monarchy-serving henchmen, astronomer – and in linguistics ignorant – Sajnovics János (1733-1785); friend of Schlözer, medical doctor Gyarmathy Sámuel (1751-1830); linguist Reguly Antal; linguist Saxon Hunfalvy (Hunsdorfer) Pál; and the German Joseph Budenz (who could hardly speak a word of Hungarian) created a Magyar “ancient history” that took away the pride, ancestry and knowledge of the past of the Magyars and which derived the Magyars from the hunter-gatherer Finn-Ugric culture. When the minister for Religion and Education, Trefort Ágost (1817-1888), who was originally sympathetic to the Magyars, had to answer to the Magyars who protested against the Finn-Ugric theory of their origin forced upon them by the Chancellery, he answered:

    “I respect the standpoint of You gentlemen, I however – as minister – have to look to the interests of the country, and therefore, from an external viewpoint, I accept the more advantageous principle of the Finn-Ugric theory of origin, because we need not Asiatic but European kinsmen. The government will in the future only support those spokespersons of science, who fight at the side of the Finn-Ugric theory of origin.”
    http://istvandr.kiszely.hu/ostortenet/005.html

    For those who have access to the book and know Hungarian it is called:

    Kiszely István: A magyarok eredete és ôsi kultúrája I. Püski Kiadó, Budapest, 2000.

    On page 109 Kiszely quotes another veteran historian and archaeologist – awarded in September 2007 with the Hungarian Heritage Award (Magyar Örökség Díj) by the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, despite his politically incorrect discoveries – professor Kornél Bakay:

    “For the Germans a thousand years was not enough to “forgive” the existence of the Magyars. From the 6th to the 18th century the Germans preferred to call the Magyars wild Huns, Avars, Agarenus [?], but when – via Magyar tradition – the Hungarian historians started propagating the Scythian-Hun-Avar relation documented in their chronicles in scientific books as well, at first the Germans were surprised, then mounted a fierce counter-attack. This went so far, that in the 18th century Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II (1780-1790) decreed the prohibition of teaching Magyar history and origins.”

    On page 110:

    “August Ludwig Schlözer made Fischer’s work famous in his works “Probe Russischen Annales” printed 1768 and “Allgemeine Nordische Geschichte” printed in 1771. Schlözer hated the Magyars and was happy to hear Fischer’s idea, that “Vogul-Jugri” is equivalent of the Magyars. Delighted, he mentions that the relatives of the Voguls, the Samoyeds are cannibals (“Selbstfresser”), and continues: ‘none of the Finn peoples are master peoples, only the Magyars were later exceptions, but not even they were created to rule. They were the victims and play things of their neighbours, and consequently do not have their own history (“keine eigene Geschichte haben”). Likewise, the Finns have no history of their own, and let us not forget the writings of C. Tacitus: ‘The Finns are terribly fierce and appallingly poor, they have neither weapons, horses nor houses. They eat grass, their clothes are animal skin and they sleep on the ground. Their only tool is the arrow…they have no other desires.’ These then are the relatives of the Magyars.”

    [Translations differ but here is one version of the Tacitus text translated from the original./Kartavirya]:

    (In wonderful savageness live the nation of the Fennians, and in beastly poverty, destitute of arms, of horses, and of homes; their food, the common herbs; their apparel, skins; their bed, the earth; their only hope in their arrows, which for want of iron they point with bones. Their common support they have from the chase, women as well as men; for with these the former wander up and down, and crave a portion of the prey. Nor other shelter have they even for their babes, against the violence of tempests and ravening beasts, than to cover them with the branches of trees twisted together; this a reception for the old men, and hither resort the young. Such a condition they judge more happy than the painful occupation of cultivating the ground, than the labour of rearing houses, than the agitations of hope and fear attending the defence of their own property or the seizing that of others. Secure against the designs of men, secure against the malignity of the Gods, they have accomplished a thing of infinite difficulty; that to them nothing remains even to be wished.)

    On page 112:

    “Gyarmathi Sámuel (1751-1830) actually befriended A.L. Schlözer as a medical doctor in 1795 in Göttingen, and was up until that time a passionate adherent of the Scythian-Hun-Avar-Turk theory. Now, under the influence and pressure of Schlözer, Gyarmathi became the propagator of the Finn-Ugric theory. He did not start out as a linguist, he just wrote an amateur linguistic study as an application for a position at a journal, the title of which was “Cleverly Educating Magyar Language Master”. In this study he still accepts the traditional theory based on the teachings of Otrokocsi Fóris Ferenc and Kalmár György. In 1795 he travels to Göttingen and meets Schlözer. Influenced by Schlözer Gyarmathi writes his work entitled “Affinitas linguae Hungaricae cum linguis fennicae originis gramaticae demonstrata” (1799). Consisting of three chapters he writes about the Magyar-Turkic word connections, but also about the Slavic elements in the Magyar language. In the question of relations between languages he gives weight to the linguistic connections. Looking at his etymology with the eyes of today he gives many flawed examples. […] Based on his linguistic material Gyarmathi came to the conclusion that the closest languages to the Magyar is the Vogul [Mansi] and the Ostyak. He felt that this research was better continued on site, yet nothing became of his travel plans… After this – with the exception of writing a dictionary – he never worked in lingustics again.”

    The Hungarian scholars and scientists are not alone on this issue. One example out of a number is Japanese historian Shokotu Faisi, who wrote a letter addressed to the Hungarian people in general and to the Hungarian scholars and scientists in particular, dated July 2nd 2007. The source of this letter is unclear and there is an ongoing discussion on the net concerning its authenticity. Nevertheless, I’ve translated it here from the original Hungarian, because what has been written in it is true:

    “Some of us scholars of Japanese ancient history have grown up with the belief that the most noble people and race of the earth is the Magyar. We believed and still believe You to be, beloved Magyar kinsmen, the progeny of the Empire of the Rising Sun, whom the karma of history have carried far away. Acknowledging their racial excellence we arrived in those days in Budapest to study Hungarian under the guidance of the wise Imaoka Gyuicsiro.* After the passing of thirty years I have to conclude the following:

    1) There existed no true Magyar historiography neither under the Habsburgs nor during the Horthy era. In their own interest the Habsburgs exterminated everything which referred to an ancient origin. The Teleki Pál Institute with its own biased scholars (the Horthy era scientific body) under the leadership of Hómann Bálint “re-evaluated” Magyar history in favour of the Roman Catholic church and the house of Habsburg.

    2) In this group there exists no scholar basing their work on real racial myths, for how could those evaluate the strength and the veracity of these myths who have destroyed the credibility of their own National Chronicle?

    Since the Magyar nation, race and people from the point of view of historical research must fall under the same examination as any other nation, race and people, I ask You my fellow Magyar contemporary historians, why do You in the questions regarding Your own race always refer to the Hitlerian anomalies? Why not refer to the racial similarities of “biblical Israel”? Israel is a nation, race and people, as are the Magyar, Japanese, Greek and Arab a race and a nation. But why do You – Magyar scholars – not finally solve the question of the myriad designations, personal and geographical names that occur in the Bible? From afar we can better see both the ambition and the deceit.

    In truth, the Magyar race is by now quite mixed. The scholars of “Magyar” historiography are also of such mixed blood. There are history scholars of German-Magyar, Slavic-Magyar, Romanian-Magyar, Israelite-Magyar mix, too. It is interesting to conclude, observing from the outside, that neither one of these study true Magyar history, but they seek to distort Magyar history in favour of the Germans, Slavs, Romanians, Israelites. In connection to this I wish to direct a question to these colleagues, and through them to every Hungarian. Namely: Why is it that the Magyar nation is the only nation in the world whose origins and history they are trying to cover up? Who are behind this cover-up?

    Until You will answer this question, we Japanese and all members belonging to Turanian clans (tribes) write in the language that has preserved the elements of the most ancient language – Magyar! – our letter of AWAKENING to some 800 million kinsmen (brethren), and with this we wish to pay homage to the Magyar people, race and nation for their most ancient origin and their many thousands of years of tradition – even if You want to falsify this fact.”

    * This Japanese name has been written with Hungarian spelling. The original spelling in Latin letters should be something like Imaoka Juichiro./Kartavirya

    Naturally, studying the Hungarian language is in the interest of the Hungarian people, but there will be a lot of research unavailable to scholars who are unable to speak the Hungarian language.
    You say you distrust the academic work by Hungarian scholars because of their support for researchers like Moricz. It seems to me this distrust is due to the fact that their discoveries, claims and theories don’t fit Your own world view and therefore You reject them. Why would Hungarian scientists and scholars – more than scientists and scholars from any other nationality – be lying about their findings concerning their own history?
    Could the reason why so many Hungarian scientists and scholars put their name down in support of Moricz be that he was on to something; that he, at least in part, was right?
    A lot of Hungarian scholars support Moricz and his claims, so Your conclusion is that they can’t have checked his claims? Why would they risk their career and reputation on such an outlandish theory “beyond the fringe of linguistic reality” if they didn’t think there was something to it? I wonder who has not checked who’s claims. It seems You have already decided that whatever Moricz claimed can’t be true and adjust Your arguments accordingly.
    You’re saying that:

    since many Hungarian scholars support Moricz then they can’t have checked his claims; which seems to suggest that if only a few or none of the Hungarian scholars would have supported Moricz then You would have asked where is the support from his peers, or that they did check his claims and found nothing in them.
    Either way You seem to end up rejecting Moricz’ claims.
    You seem to consider the possibility of the Hungarian scholars checking and actually finding Moricz’ claims to be accurate – at least in part – an impossibility. Why?

    Verifying the existence of the so-called ‘Gold Library’ and its alleged contents is impossible at present since nobody knows where to even start looking. But verifying whether indigenous peoples in South America speak and/or understand the modern Hungarian language is very possible, by sending a professional research team to Ecuador to talk to these tribal people. Of course, it would have to be researchers and scholars who understand perfectly both the Hungarian language and the language of the Indians, without any bias from the Spanish or any other people. This should really only concern the Hungarian people and the indigenous peoples of the Americas. It is interesting and very telling to see how others are very quick to dismiss any connection between Hungarians and the indigenous peoples of the Americas. I wonder why? What does it matter to them?

    For further research I recommend the following websites which both have published material in English.

    INSTITUTE OF HUNGARIAN STUDIES
    http://www.magtudin.org/

    HUNMAGYAR.ORG
    http://www.hunmagyar.org/

    The article below is a good place to start:

    THE CONTROVERSY ON THE ORIGINS AND EARLY HISTORY OF THE HUNGARIANS
    http://www.hunmagyar.org/tor/controve.htm

  4. Carl Masthay said:

    To Laszlo and Kârtavîrya (‘son of Made-Virility’ in Sanskrit, a nom de plume for hiding, but what is your real Hungarian name?),

    OK, this is going to be long. Sorry. [Arial Unicode MS is what I am sending this in; you might want to change your toolbar: View > Encoding > menu and choose.]

    Seemingly neither of you have paid attention to what I have actually written but only to your possible ethnic insecurities and defensiveness. Let me state right away that until László V. (a friend whom I have known since about 2000 because our introduction by Kathy Mills, a Schaghticoke Indian from my home state of Connecticut) had sent me that unexpected e-mail titled “South American natives speak ancient European language”from http://www.cakravartin.com/archives/south-american-natives-speak-ancient-european-language, I had never had any bias toward Hungarians or their culture or language. Since you, László, know that I “do” languages, that is why you sent it to me—something so rare, and so I took considerable interest in pursuing its subject matter. I must assume that you wanted my opinion or to inform me about it. I spent a lifetime in these matters, and it just looks to me made up by János Móricz, and I “proved” it with the linguistic data using Chipayan numerals. As an aside, I used a standard traditional English spelling method as /mo-rits/ to help one to pronounce it properly. You used /moo-ric/. Yes, that fits the Hungarian spelling system but not for English speakers, who would pronounce that as /muu-rik/. We dispense with long vowels in this traditional method because English speakers are not sensitive to true temporal lengthening (such as our “foot” versus similar “food,” the latter being temporally longer than the former). In addition, Prof. György Kara (gkara@indiana.edu), a Hungarian scholar working in Central Asian languages including Chinese, had read my message too and agreed that indeed I had supplied the correct pronunciation as /mo-rits/ and gave a historical background to it.
    Also you are right that ‘2’ is properly kettő, whereas két is properly a bound form. I had always assumed that it was a form used for counting off and was influenced by the short form in Vogul. Sorry. [Also my previously supplied etymology for the word “Sumer” was so old that it was wrong.]
    László, in your letter you wrote that you had “been warned that [I was] ‘strange’, which [you had] experienced in our personal meeting at [my] home.” That warning probably came from business-like Kathy Mills, with whom I had been in contact for some years earlier. She eventually came to St. Louis on business, called me up, and wanted to go to a good restaurant. We went to Stouffer’s moving circular restaurant high beside the Mississippi where the meeting cost me $100. I had edited Schmick’s Mahican Dictionary for 11 years before getting it published. That language was also of her tribe. I can’t follow the normal values of average Americans to have done such a huge project. Of course I am “strange”! So what?! That’s why it works, but I don’t harm anyone. Furthermore, when I was an atheist teen-ager contemplating my future world, I wanted to know languages and wanted to help others in this monoglot country called the USA with the best way to use words and writing and in other languages. There are already too many people on this earth, and so I knew that I would never marry though I do love women and stayed with only seven or so with long hiatuses. Does that make me strange? And I am a life member of Mensa; of course that too makes me strange and out of the thinking ways of the average Joe. You state that I am one “who wants to be a know-it-all.” Well, so what?! When I was that teen-ager, I knew that I would spend a lifetime studying, unlike what the average American does with watching television, following sports, and getting overly religious. I was a medical editor, fulfilling my life’s dream with the best written word possible for 33 working years at Mosby (now Elsevier). Editors have a wide-ranging hidden set of obscure knowledge. Why, I have to be a disparageable virtual “know-it-all” to make that occupation work! Thanks for the compliment! Köszönöm szépen!
    Getting back to Kathy Mills, I hope you remember that she brought us together for a special reason—to have you show me your step-father’s long, hard-bound, published work in Hungarian featuring information about her tribe, the Schaghticoke (Scatticook) of Kent, Connecticut, so that you could translate it into English and then have me edit it professionally for future publication. I looked at it with considerable interest and did not copy down the bibliographic data because I just felt that I could trust you for future communications about it. I’m sorry that I failed to write down his name as author, the title, the city, the year, and the publisher—that is all I was asking from you later on, long after you and your wife, Joy, left my driveway in your huge trailer, and then you began to withdraw from the project that Kathy had her hopes on. Over the many months I tried to figure out why. I had assumed that you as a well-known filmmaker for famous movies had worried about copyright ownership of the information in that rare book by your step-father, or I felt that, as a Hungarian from communist Hungary where suspicion was easily aroused, you began to mistrust me, a person in wide-open America where we automatically assume trustworthiness in others. Finally I just gave up over your defensiveness. All I wanted was the bibliographic information of an already published Hungarian work to be able to describe it to my fellow Algonquianists and to people with Mahican blood—the Schaghticokes and the Stockbridge-Munsees of the Mohican Band in Wisconsin. Even the description of another lost “tool” of their culture was denied me—so how could I otherwise feel? And while I am at it, what did happen to that project—was it translated by you, did Kathy Mills pursue it further with you or give up, is it still hidden away never to be seen by the Amerindians it describes and locked into a distant European language?
    The use of comparative linguistics is to show relatedness in masses of languages around the world. The real purpose of my collecting all those sets of numerals in 3300 languages was to get a “physical” feel for which peoples are related and automatically know which obscure tribes have an affinity to each other. It was not a jumble of lists but a systematic matching of sets with aid of two major language-classification sources: the Voegelins’ and Ruhlen’s (who does imperfect lumping). If you want to promote a lineal descent of some tribes of South America, you have to work with valid language specimens. Comparative genetics has been done by Cavalli-Sforza’s group, which doesn’t show a Hungarian-Chipayan or Macro-Chibchan connection (as James Bowery, 31 Oct. 2007, had wished). So that’s already been answered. Kartavirya said that it wasn’t those extinct languages but the tribe that was using Hungarian. Well, that’s a circular or non sequitur argument indeed! Those languages are the markers representing usual genetic relatedness if they have been conserved over time, and there isn’t any relation to Hungarian, as I showed by their numerals one to ten. Of course the claim is nonsense. The only thing left is that some members might have been studying Hungarian to the point of fluency, an artificial modern relatedness for which no newspaper article or scholarly approval should have appeared for such a specious claim by Móricz. How could anyone be so duped?
    Also, Kartavirya, you stated that those South American Andean languages were “Mayan” genetically. Well, there is no Mayan language in South America, but the Mayan family is in the Penutian phylum, and, doing respect to your words, I find that the Voegelins, 1977, p. 117 under CHIPAYAN, surprisingly state the following: “Affiliation. Member of Penutian phylum, with relatively close affinities to Mayan (Olsen 1964; Stark 1968; Hamp 1967a, 1971), though Lyle Campbell (1973) presents a negative case for this relationship. [Superseded is Chipayan as being included in either Arawakan or Macro-Chibchan, whereas Yunca/Mochica is under Macro-Chibchan or a language isolate.]”
    So now you have assumed that I was under the influence of Hungarian haters in past-century Germans. Please don’t count me as one of them. It never was and never will be within me to hate Hungarians, such a fine European people who came from Central Asia long ago. Until you sent that article, I had not the least inkling of any ethnic bias over there, but now, with all the word shouting and the long defensive positions about a subject irrelevant to whether South American tribes are related to Hungarians, I am beginning to worry that you both have taught me and others in the world to be wary of Hungarian scholarship after all if this is a representative sample of such scholarship, that arising from Móricz. The issues of Germans and Hungarians were the problem of another age of which I am so glad to be ignorant of till now.
    It is important for me to state that the whole mass of data about linguistic relatedness of over 6700 world languages is pretty well classified, except for poor data from the past or insufficient scholars to process it or just plain guessing on the part of Greenberg and of Ruhlen. South America, Africa, and much of New Guinea still require massive amounts of good scholarly work on protoforms of language groups for comparative linguistics to result in good classifications. Nevertheless, the work on Finno-Ugric is solidified within Uralic—an unquestioned language family. The next step up is Ural-Altaic, but Altaic comprises the assumedly remotely related Turkic, Mongol, Tungus (= Manchu), and then Korean-Japanese, all of which have surprisingly similar typological features even though the words don’t match well. Was is widespread areal borrowing or an extremely deep time frame before a splitting away?
    Dr. Gyula Décsy is an established Hungarian linguist in Bloomington, Indiana, who has written many books of great complexity—a glory to Magyar! In my last communication to you, László and Kartavirya, I mentioned his book (The linguistic identity of Europe: Part I, Bloomington, Ind., 2000, Eurolingua, page 227) and quote his all-important statement that the Votyaks [Udmurt] and the Zirians [Komi] “together form the Permian branch of the Finno-Ugric language family. They are settled even today in a region which belonged to the territory of the Finno-Ugrian original homeland [(my emphasis) just west of the Urals and northward].” That’s at least 1200 miles away from Hungary. How much clearer can it get? This is not a scholar under the old biased German influence you dislike but your fellow countryman, one who is following proper and logical linguistic data patterns in his field of study.
    All right then, let me display the numerals for some of these Finno-Ugric and Altaic languages so that you can see the relatedness for yourselves. (Unfortunately I will have to level down the phonetic clarity of the original transcription so that the e-mail transmission won’t drop the symbols.)

    Finno-Ugric:
    Hungarian: egy, kettő (long ö), három, négy, öt, hat, hét, nyolc, kilenc, tíz
    Ostyak, 1870 (Xanty): ögy (it), katxen, xûdem, neta, vet, kût, sabat, nigdax, killien, yang
    Vogul (Mansi): akva, kitigh (kit), xûrm, n’ila, at, xôt, sât, n’ollow, ôntollow, low
    Votyak (Udmurt): odig, kyk, kuin’, n’yl’, vit’, kuat’, siz’ym, t’amys, ukmys, das (Iranian loan)
    Zirian (Komi): ötik, kyk, kuim, nyol’, vit, kvait, sizim, kökyamys, ökmys, das (Iranian loan)
    Cheremis (Mari) short: ik, kak, kum, nil, vits, kut, sim, kändäxshe, endexshe, lu
    Lapp (Saami) leveled: aht, kuht, kolm, niell, vidt, kudt, kidjem, kaxts, axts, log’k’
    Finnish: yksi, kaksi, kolme, neljä, viisi, kuusi, seitsemän, kahdeksan, yhdeksän, kymmenen
    Estonian: üks, kaks, kolm, neli, viis, kuus, seitse, kaheksa, üheksa, kümme

    Altaic:
    Turkish: bir, ikí, üch, dört, besh, altí, yedí, sekíz, dokúz, on
    Mongolian (Kalmyk): negn, khoir, gurvn, dörvn, tavn, zurghan, dolan, näämn, yisn, arvn
    Common Tungusic: ämün, djör, ilan, dügün, tunga, n’öngün, nadan, djapkun, xüyägün, djuwan
    Manchu: emu, juwe, ilan, duin, sunja, ninggun, nadan, jakuun, uyun, juwan

    Korean (South): hana, tul, seit, neit, tasot, yasot, ilgop, yadol, ahop, yol
    Japanese (shortened in counting): hí, fú, mí, yó, í, mú, ná, yá, kóko, tó

    After examination of this “boring, eye-tiring” list one can easily see that Finno-Ugric is closely related in its member languages, whereas Altaic is very loosely bound, and only ‘4’ is clearly similar and maybe ‘10’. So when that enthusiastic Japanese scholar praised Magyar as being the basis of Japanese, he went for a long, long stretch of plausibility. It was Roy Miller who enhanced the status of Korean-Japanese within Altaic. The evidence is weak but plausible, as most scholars now agree with some reluctance.
    I hope that I have given you a useful tool to understand why we scholars are not demeaning beautiful Hungarian (Magyar) at all but simply showing its great relationship to a larger family, one they migrated from so very long ago 1200 miles away into the European realm and where they cannot claim ancestry for the previous peoples who did live there in the Hungarian-Romanian lands where ancient tablets were found, said to be “Sumerian,” which could very well be.
    As for me, I am fluent in Chinese, French, and Spanish, read at least 8 languages, and have studied over 50 of them (not remembering anything of course!). I have produced two published works on Mahican and one huge one on Kaskaskia Illinois, both Algonquian languages, after 30 years of self-study of Algonquian languages, Cherokee, Navajo, Mayan, and Nahuatl. Back in 1960 while learning Chinese in the US Air Force and technical training, I borrowed study books from an airman studying Hungarian and studied a smattering of Hungarian over 2 weeks till I realized that I had to concentrate on other matters lest there be interference in language learning. Over these many decades from time to time I have needed to look up Hungarian words and still consult my Hungarian dictionary many times per year, as well as how to spell Hungarian surnames properly from an old 1981 Budapest telephone directory I was able to buy from someone in New York. There is no way I can disparage either Hungarian or the classy people who speak it.
    I hope that this is enough to mitigate any hard feelings from anyone and to present the real facts countering those other claims.

    Carl Masthay, St. Louis, of Polish ancestry
    __________________________________

  5. Végvári József dr said:

    Carl, are you sure that Uralic is an “unquestioned language family”? You should read “The Uralic Language Family: Facts, Myths and Statistics by Angela Marcantonio (The Philological Society, 2002) as well as papers by the Hungarian linguist dr Marácz László living in the Netherlands.It is really high time you got acquainted with the real facts about Hungarian!

  6. Débora said:

    Mr. Kartaviya:

    Last year I introduced in Argentina, one of the plates found by Juan Moricz in Tayos. Four years ago which investigated the matter. The Library Steel is a reality, as well as studies of linguistic Moricz, with regard to the origins of the people magyar. I would like to contact me.

    Débora Goldstern

    Crónicas Subterráneas
    http://deboragoldstern.webcindario.com/

  7. Mr. Masthay:

    I wish to support Kartavirya’s suggestion that you thoroughly examine not only the work of the Finno-Ugric theorists — whose work is by all means anti-Hungarian — but also the studies by scholars who have written with more credibility about the Hungarian connections with the Scythian-Hun and Sumerian peoples and who oppose the Finno Ugric theory which cannot be proven. The Hungarians do not originate from the Finno-Ugric peoples but as their neigbors they have some common vocabulary. At the VII World Congress of Hungarians in Budapest in August, Dr. Judit Béres, a geneticist, proved that there was no genetic connection between the Hungarians and the Finno-Ugric peoples, indeed they have the most distant connection.

    I recommend that you read the following books:

    Bobula Ida: A magyar nép eredete
    Bobula Ida: The Origin of the Hungarian Nation
    Bobula Ida: The Origin of the Hungarian Nation, Part 2
    Bobula Ida: Szumir-magyar rokonság

    Csőke S: Sumerian and Ural-Altaic Elements in the Old Slavic language
    Csőke Sándor: Szumir-finn-mongol-török összehasonlitó nyelvtan
    Csőke S. : Az ősszláv nyelv sumer ural-altaji elemei
    Csőke S. : A magyar nyelv szláv jövevény szavai
    Csőke S. : Finn-ugor nyelvek nincsenek
    Csőke S. : A sumer ősnyelvtől a magyar élőnyelvig
    Csőke S. : Sumér ural-altai nyelvek hatása a szláv nyelvek fejlődésére
    Csőke S. : Sumér-magyar összehasonlító nyelvtan
    Csőke S. : Szumir-magyar egyeztető szótár

    Nagy Sándor: The Forgotten Cradle of the Hungarian Culture
    Szentkátolnai Bálint Gábor: Magyar nyelv Dél-Indiában

    Unfortunately most of these books have only been published in Hungarian because their authors could not publish them in English because the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, following the directive of Agoston Trefort, Minister of Culture, would not support them and they had to rely on their own resources to publish their books.

    We have translated and published one book by Sándor Csőke and one by Sándor Nagy.

    Dr. Lajos Kazár’s work is important because he demonstrates the far reaching scope of the Hungarian language in his book:

    Japanese-Uralic Language Comparison
    Locating Japanese Origins with the Help of Samoyed, Finnish, Hungarian etc.

    Dr. Marácz László, Professor of Linguistics at the University of Amsterdam, Holland has written an article entitled:
    The Untenability of the Finno-Ugric Theory

    Dr Angela Marcantonio has written several books and articles to refute the Finno-Ugric theory, among them:
    A történelmi nyelvészet és a magyar nyelv eredete
    Uralic Languages in Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics

    Several of these books can be found on our website in English: http://www.magtudin.org

    I hope this information is helpful and will show you that the “infallibility” of the Finno-Ugric theory can be questioned.

    László Botos

  8. There is an error on Carl Masthay’s Khanty word list: one in Khanty is
    not ögy but yit or yiy.

  9. Szilvia said:

    Oh, I can see some of you dislike the idea, that Móricz’s findings can be true. I really can feel sorry for almost all the nation in the world, who don’t have such an ancient and beautiful past than Hungarians HAVE. But for some kinds of reason (which some very clever people in HUngary know, others just suspect) almost all the countries in the world rewrote our history. And why I believe this? Our language is so ancient, that these kind of words which are in the text of Móricz, too did exist. But in the 1800’s years our language “needed” to be renovated or what, because politicians ABROAD said that our language didN’t have the words for literature, politics, science, and so on. Nevertheless, if they could just use their brain, just a little, not too much, they could have known that Hunagrian language is THE MOST expressive language in the world. Or they knew it very well?
    By the way, Hungarians will exist in the world forever, no matter how evil peple will harm us and the country.
    I can suggest to you all to try to accept this fact.

  10. Ilona Kiss Hooper said:

    For hundreds of years, but especially under the Habsburg-rule, the
    Magyar language was under attack. They encouraged the predomi-
    nance of the German language, over the ancient, beautiful Magyar,
    but, by the Grace of God the Magyar prevailed! Sir John Bowring
    (1792-1872) spoke and translated Magyar to English, such as the
    “Poetry of the Magyars”. He wrote: The origin of the Hungarian
    language extend to time immemorial. It developed in a very particular manner and it’s structure reaches back to times, when
    most of the now spoken European languages did not even exist.
    It needs no one, it does not borrow, does no buckstering and does
    not give to, or take from anyone. This language is the oldest and
    most glorious monument of a national sovereignty and a mental
    independence. He, who solves it shall be analyzing the Divine secret
    in its very first tenet: ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word
    was with God, and the Word was God.” ( ” Kezdetben vala az Ige,
    s az Ige vala az Isten, s az Isten vala az Ige.”)

  11. Elina said:

    re: Mr. Carl Masthay’s comments: About 40 years ago, when I was a student in grade 10, we studied a book called The Rise of the West…..what struck me in this book was the history of the Sumerians, and the language…some poems of Sumer were printed in the book…brimming with excitement, I approached my teacher and showed him all the words that were very similar to Hungarian, my mother tounge. I asked him how was that possible. He just shrugged and said that many languages have similarities, and then he totally dismissed my questions. I forgot about this for years and then one day, a few years ago, when I bought myself a computer,(I was slow when it came to acquiring new technology) I started to do a little research on my ancestry,,,and found a lot of information written by Fred Hamori. I was amazed that my childhood queries were finally satisfied. So, Mr. Carl Masthay, not to denigrate your vast knowledge as I believe you are extremely well educated and knowledegable, and likely very sincere in your quest for your area of expertise, it is however, possible that you are not seeing the complete picture…perhaps it is just the way it is, why would you want to pursue something that is not close to your heart?

  12. Dennis Weinberg said:

    Regards to the connection to the Magyars, When I was in bolivia I found hungarian runic writtings in a cave, but visiting a few of the museums you will also find that dna of bones found in boliva done by the bolivian government , the only people in the world to have a match was Hungarian people, Sure many people from Budapest and larger cities have mixed blood but you still find the dna of hungarians not to mention there blood line. I have a metallurgy Lab and can show you that metals from parts of the world are all different, its similar like dna in people, some of the gold found in south america was from the same source ancient hungarian finds were from, they were mined from the Carpathian basin. Gold and copper from the carpathian basin is very unique, and very easy to show that its not gold from south america nor the middle east. Same as gold relics found in the middle east that were large were also from the same basin, same with the copper found. As for the marble of the middle east that was from the balkans and some from turkey. The Magyars are a unique group of people, there ancient language will live forever, Looking into the mound people of north america you will also find the same runic writing, Several rocks with the writing i visited in New Mexico, and area. Many north american indians also share hungarian words. Look anywhere in the world with a ancient people with pyramids and you will find the writing, the gold, the copper from the same basin, i think the carpathian basin has a lot to tell. Many digs in the carpathian basin you will find treasures like you do from those ancient cultures…many cultures wanted to hide this knowledge, the problem is (for them) that there is way too much of it to just hide : ) and year after year you see the hungarians learning how to read and write there old writing. I been to many sites in south america to do research, even mexico had some good finds, north america, asia, africa, and europe, even the place called MU has the writing. You ever wonder why they hide things from the public : ) Go try to investigate the mound people of north america : ) If you wonder whay happened to the old government surveys that were sold at auction back in the 50tys, I got them, from pictures to step by step documentation showing its the same people, sure there were other type of people who later used what was left behind etc but it was of very intelligent disign and not some cave man. Just for outsiders like me, look at how logical the language is, how mathematical it is, how rich it is…. you just cant compare any language to this language. I am not perfect in english nor am i perfect in hungarian but I would rather learn more hungarian then english. I wish you guys all the best. And for those that still try to poison these waters learn hungarian and the runic writing and you will see these hungarians were in the carpathian basin pre mini ice age showing the connection of how these metals can be found in many places as relics etc. You cant say these metals were from the lands they were found in, just that shows a huge connection. One day will make a big book showing my research and how i got them, not to mention video of taking my equipment to these places and showing the connection. I can be reached at GlobalSynergys@aol.com

  13. Istvan said:

    It was interesting to read the article above.

    I have heard that there are indigenous tribes in Amazonia, who speak (some) Hungarian. The official explanation was for this that Hungarian Jesuites taught these words for the Indians. I was wondering how on earth would isolated Indian tribes remember this for centuries?
    Anyway, as a native Hungarian speaker it would be fantastic to meeting Indians who speak Hungarian. If someone does have any information where exactly these tribes live (near which town, river etc.), if they exist, I would appreciate every information (jaguani@gmail.com).

    To briefly address Mr Masthay’s comment, I just would like to add that I am Hungarian, and yes, I do understand texts written in Sumerian and Etruscan.
    The Finno-Ugric theory he cites is a total nonsense, and has long been outdated. The time for the truth has come, the Hungarians are the most ancient, and the original inhabitants of the European continent, all signs from prehistory lead to the Hungarian people.

    Mr Moricz’s finding of the ancient underground library seem to be real. Many artifacts were actually exhibited in a local museum by a priest, Padre Crespi, who lived in the area for decades. Most items from his collection has disappeared or have been taken abroad into private collections.

  14. Pal Keliger said:

    I wish to make only a few points:
    1) The Ottoman Empire sold large number of hungarians as slaves, mainly to Brasil. Many of them had to escape to the upper Amasonas. In the given circumstances, being in the process of assimilation, their skin whiter for generations, might had to keep there own language without keeping memories of the past.
    2) About his foundings…. let’s see them!
    3) I argue, that hungarian would be a nation. It is a invention of Bismark. There are no roots behind it. I say – as the Good Man said about sabbath – ‘the language is for the people and not other way around. The only language is made for communication between individuals, is hungarian. It is also ancient. Other languages communicating people, ‘the tail is vawing the dog’. It determinates your way of thinking and views. If you want to be free, learn hungarian! And, it is a full HD, 3 dimensional, colorful picture, compare to b/w others. And what’s more, it is highly spiritual. As Ede Teller (jew-hung) said lately, I relised, that there is only one language exists, that is hungarian.
    It is only a language, no nationality question.

  15. Laszlo V. said:

    HOLY SMOKE!
    The “Moricz” subject is still going strong.
    I guess where there is SMOKE there is FIRE.

    In the past 5 years the Moricz research is getting almost spiritual attention.
    For anyone who made comments on this site would have a great interest to know
    of the ”Juan Moricz Cultural Society”. http://www.juanmoricz.hu
    The society is organizing their 1st International Conference in Hungary on April 14 and 15th 2012.
    http://www.konf.juanmoricz.hu
    It is may be the next step to uncover the truth and/or continue the controversy.

    Unfortunately, both websites are in Hungarian language which will close out anyone who don’t speak it. (or not?)
    The distinguished quest speakers are from Ecuador, Austria and Hungary. The participants audience
    basically, from all around the world.

    Sometimes such a conference could establish new milestones but in the same time,
    the Internet has the advantage the time less and border less communication.
    You can share your opinion on the site or HUIndian@comcast.net

  16. Dennis Weinberg said:

    Regards to Pal Keliger comment, LOL , There are roots behind it, You need to read more. Oldest tribes in South america were Hungarians, even the so called inca write in hungarian and there dna are very much tied to Hungarians…. , please dont write comments when you do not do your research, from metals to dna to language they all tie to the same people. Please dont speak in behalf of Teller, He is related to me on my mothers side and he would also tell you that a part of his dna is Hungarian, if anything he was more proud of his Hungarian Roots then his Jewish or German roots. If you would have known him he would have given you a teaching whats what in this world and how the victors write history. Problem for the so called victors is there life as they know it is sinking. History is amazing and its interesting as we live in a more share friendly time we can prove how todays history books and religious books are just a book of lies. Cheers,

  17. Olaf König said:

    Fortunately, DNA technology is now sufficiently advanced to corroborate the lineal descent of the tribes in question from the Magyars. The DNA of the american indians shows, that they originally came from the Ural-Altai region in russia. And the hungarians? Correct: the origin of the hungarians is the Ural-Altai too!

  18. Peter M. said:

    One problem I’ve determined is that there is a barrier of sorts between Western styled academia and the East. As a fully qualified historian taught in the Western tradition, I was very disturbed about this and upon examining the ‘peer review’ strategy, I’ve found that instead of promoting the flow of hypothesis and theory, it actually diminishes it. Academia is not as evolved as the academics believe. Consequently there is a holier than thou attitude which prevents and may even stop paradigm change. The other aspect of Western academia is that it has a tradition on concentrating on the West. In fact, very little is known about the East as western scholars generally are not interested, don’t have the language skills and so it becomes much less important to them.
    So when an agglutinative language like Hungarian appears, so strange from their Latin based knowledge, they must put it in some kind of box. They don’t fully understand the continuum of the Asiatic cultures, partially due to their specialization and the difficulty of an inherent, non-interdisciplinary approach.
    The Hungarian Academy of Sciences (HAS) vs The Institute of Hungarian Studies (IHS) is another matter. It is un-academic for the HAS not to review qualified work done by the IHS, although the IHS has to do some fact-checking on it’s own supported works, some of which is nepotistic and somewhat pseudo-scientific, hiding the real gems. The HAS is a product of Western academia and appears to be extremely biased. The IHS is almost the polar opposite. For example, the IHS still uses the Turanian term when in Western academia, Turania is almost a forgotten classification. One can’t argue with the other as they seem to speak a different language. The West relies on linguistics, archaeology (namely pots and grave sites) and assume that the Magyars were one people, when in fact they were different tribes from different localities. The Magyars were only a single tribe. But the evidence was destroyed by the priests and long forgotten. The biblical rendition, (the Seven tribes of Etelkoz) and all the circumstantial evidence point to many different origins of the many tribes that eventually called themselves Hungarians. The Reindeer people related to the Mansi/Khanty (who are now probably extinct) carry proto-Magyar words across the Arctic from Canadian Eskimos to the Lapps of Finland. The Ugyhurs and Japanese (no one mentioned the Vietnamese yet), are culturally and linguistically linked. The rest of the Turkic tribes -an estimated 300 peoples in Siberia are all related. But that is as far as the West has gone, because they demand physical evidence, a word or two in a Chinese or Arab archive ~ something that leads to proof or at least debatable conjecture.
    The origins of the Hungarians – especially the language, will always be shrouded in mystery. There is a story that the Ashoks of the Caucasus told the legend of Gilgamesh for thousands of years, carried father to son for centuries and when the tablets were found and translated, it was compared to the folklore. It was almost identical. What verbal history or legend remains of the Hungarians? How can this be used to validate any truths out there?

  19. kamjournalist888 said:

    If you want more details about research of Moricz Janos, or expeditions to Tayos Cave in Ecuador etc. you may contact on fb.
    https://www.facebook.com/tayos.manuel.palacios?fref=ts&ref=br_tf
    there is much more on this topic….thanks

  20. Luiz David Szilagyi said:

    I was born in Brazil, and I’m also hungarian, and it’s fact many tribes in south America speak asiatic languages. It’s not clever not admit ancient people from Asia, came to Americas and left culture here. Paul Arnold decifered Mayan Language with arcaic chinese, so why some old magyar language can’t be found around here? Vikings discovered America is part of the history, one piece with a romantic approach. However just few people know portuguese people were in USA at ~1330 and phoenicians were in Brazil 2500 years ago. Not to say greeks, romans, chinese, indians, jewish and others. By the way somebody here told Teller is jewish, maybe so, but go read first Arthur Koestler book about european jewish people.

  21. Richard Anthony Szab said:

    What a pleasure to see such threads in existence. I do extensive research on the Magyar/Indian language relation and Varga Geza and myself have made breakthrough discoveries yet to be published. Geza has more than proven that not only do Huns have Rovas as an ancient text but that they developed advanced, stand alone heiroglyphs as well. TO CARL MATHASY, as a linguist, do you forget that Magyar alone is responsible for translating/transcribing the mass majority of Mayan pictographs, Egyptian heiroglyphs, Sumerian cuneiform, Etruscan Ancient latin which Mario Alinei has reinforced that in fact, ancient latin is HUNGARIAN/MAGYAR????? Are you unaware of this? Of course you are which is why you deserve to suffer a painful death for your unwavering arrogant display. Pathetic. Dont bother teaching us of OUR true history seeing as we’ll teach you about “your’s” Hahahahahhaha u pitiful fool. FOOD FOR THOUGHT….Ottawa, Ontario is the capital of Canada. Ottawa is a native word. OTTAWA=OT+TAVAK now go count the great lakes and translate OT + TAVAK. Refer back to your arrogant egotistical summary of Egy, ketto, harom, negy and….as for tavak=lake pl. Heres another of my unpublished findings and theres no need to reinforce or prove shit because im Magyar and ill be doing the Magyaraz-ing for you dear, Carl Mathasy!!!! TORONTO=TO(r)+ ONTO, to=lake + onto=pourer and all 4 great lakes empty into lake Ontario, to the st lawrence and finally into the ocean. Hey Carl, dont forget….isten nem bottal ver!!!! . Eljen a Magyar!!!!! eGYaZiSTeN

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